Keeping Gains Through PCT While Cutting

[Mister A]

Semper PMd me and Im gonna copy and paste my answer here for the sake of clarification and to keep the discussion going. This isnt about whats going to burn fat its about whats going to preserve muscle while I come off cycle without going into a caloric surplus.

. My protein is too high to get me into ketosis. My body is going to make its own glucose through gluconeogenesis. My carbs are at 70 grams most days. I could get away with 100g, but Im instead using that massive energy supply of fat. I actually train fasted and wait about an hour after training to eat my meal which us 55g pro and 40g slow carbs. As much as cutting fat is a priority, so is preserving muscle. Now 40g of carbs do not refill glycogen stores. But the insulin spike combined with the alkalinity brought on by the veggies in the meal come together to stop the muscle breakdown. Some gkycogen is replenished and by the end of the night my blood sugar is lowered again and shifting back to using fat as fuel. I back load my carbs so they are only eaten post workout. The training and both cardio sessions are therefore fueled by fat.

 

 

[swolesam]

Dolf - i guta thank you again for the tracker, although i opted to use LiveStrong app on android. The tracker concept is AWESOME, and im naturally a very organized thorough person, so it fits my personality well. yes, sounds weird but it does  Im putting in EVERYTHING down to the coffee cream. Keeps my ass no track w/ my diet and PORTION CONTROL !

 

[swolesam]

never heard of him. You live you learn

Im looking him up right now, and its time to dig into his work. Hopefully its all free and available online!

 

[SemperFi]

Very well written explanation.

To further the need to keep this discussion going please correct me if I am wrong but ketone bodies and gluconeogenesis work hand in hand. 

To explain if you eat enough protein each day it will provide enough amino acids for gluconeogenesis, and your muscles will stay intact. Your body will burn your stored fat for fuel through ketone bodies instead. This is what happens naturally when you limit your carbohydrate intake.

This happens at night when we sleep and our blood sugar is kept in a very narrow range. The body just begins producing new sugar on its own.

Not to confuse anyone because Ketosis and gluconeogenesis are two very separate processes but they can and do work in synergy with each other. Don't they? Or am I confused and using two very separate  metabolic processes to explain the use of ketone bodies as fuel?

I have been in and out of being "ketone adapted" for the most part of 2 years and I have never considered gluconeogenesis as a stand alone but just an added benefit to ketosis. Nice to see a new twist in this area.

SEMPER FI

 

[Mister A]

Im not so sure where you heard they work hand in hand. Its my understanding that if the body is converting excess protein to glycogen then it has no need to also produce ketones. Im no nutritionist however, just a guy trying to figure it all out so someone correct this if its wrong. I always thought ketones were the physiological reaction to a population of people living without access to starchy carbs such as those in colder climates. Im thinking of Eskimos who lived primarily off the fatty fish they caught. I have so many questions about things like that though. I wonder about Asian people who are for the most part very lean, ectomorphic people who probably eat more rice and pasta than any other ethnic group. Id like to think that their bodies have become so good at processing starches that it keeps them lean? Maybe there are a myriad of other things going on here as well.

I do think that for someone trying to lose a lot of fat (25% and up), keto is the way to go. But when you throw in the goal of retaining muscle mass, its harder to do without carbs and insulin. I got a chance to speak directly to Evan Centopani on the old MD forums and he explained this to me after trying both ways in two different precontest diets. He said that he had more energy while on a keto diet, but felt he looked better after the low carb approach. So I think guys like rux and Semper are totally right about their ketone adaptation being a great, even superior, fuel reserve. But for the BB trying to get into contest shape, performance and energy and state of mind arent actual priorities. Im suffering terribly in those aspects while improving my body composition and looking better every day. 236.8 this morning. Inching my way closer.

 

[Dolf]

His articles on bodybuilding.com are free.

 

[Dolf]

You can buy strips that you pee on to tell you if you're in ketosis. Everyone is different. You may hit ketosis at 100 grams per day whereas I might not hit ketosis until 50 or less. Pretty handy tool that's cheap.

 

[Mister A]

Ive used the strips before. Could never get a dark purple even on zero grams. Talked to some competitive bbs who explained gluconeogenesis was preventing the ketosis. A true keto diet is 70-80% fat and 20-30% protein. So if your goal is to build or maintain muscle mass this is clearly the wrong way to go about it due to such limited amino acids.

 

[SemperFi]

They key to either process is the availability specific amino acids. A few amino acids support both processes from my simple research.

I agree with your point and gluconeogenesis is a good option to consider. My personal experience has provided muscle building and retention in ketosis as well but some of that may have actually been through the help of gluconeogenesis because of the protein intake during specific periods of the day.

The human body is ever complex and amazing.

SEMPER FI

 

[SemperFi]

Lazy Black Bear,

I do stand corrected and learned something very new and important. This explanation of my new understanding is more for myself and is based on simple research so if there is anything to add let's do it!

Although gluconeogenesis has been associated with ketosis. Ketosis and gluconeogenesis are definitely two very separate and different processes. Gluconeogenesis occurs regardless of fasting, low-carbohydrate diets, exercise, etc.

I did a bit more research and gluconeogenesis does NOT produce ketones. Although is it possible to be in ketosis and gluconeogenesis at different times of the day. I assumed that they worked hand and hand but in all reality they have just been associated with each other because both can be achieved through low carb intake.

To reaffirm LBB's point and an simplified definition of the processes- gluconeogenesis produces glucose from glycogenic amino acids (not ketogenic amino acids) and ketosis produces ketones from ketogenic amino acids. They both use fatty acids but in a different way.

Interesting stuff.

SEMPER FI

 

[blastthru23]

A quick comment on ethnicity and diet: My friends father is a psychologist whose primary focus is on eating disorders, and has studied groups of people who were "civilized", which resulted in a diet packed with processed foods, and foods that their bodies were not accustomed to. He found that when both groups  (those with eating disorders, and those taken out of their natural environment) reverted back to what either their ancestors ate before industrial agriculture, or what they ate prior to becoming civilized, many of their physical and/psychological illnesses were abated if not entirely removed. This inspired me to look at what the people ate during the viking age as i come from primarily Scandanavian decent. I found that they ate mostly birds, small game and a shit ton of fish, with a bit of fruit, green vegetables, and what could be considered oats or barley; wheat came into the picture a little later. I then decided to more or less adopt a diet in line with the diet of the vikings, which really turns out to be rather a lot like a body building diet. Somewhat low in carbs, high in protein, and healthy fats. I personally don't weigh anything very much, but go by how i feel, although i do keep track more or less of how much protein i get daily. Since adopting this approach, i have lost quite a bit of bf, am generally in a better mood, and grow muscle quite well compared to how i went about diet in the past. Love this discussion btw, MisterA. You're an inspiration on many levels brother. I hope to be able to contribute at the level you do someday!

 

[Mister A]

Its interesting to look into the way both processes use fatty acids. And I did not know about the glycogenic/ketogenic aminos. Thatll give me something to read later.

I dont think gluconeogenesis is something that should be aimed for. Its an adaptation your body makes when youre getting a lot of one thing and very little of something else. Its be a lot easier to just give your body carbs than force it to turn protein into glucose. Not to mention - you think youre eating, say, 250 grams of protein to help maintain muscle mass, but if your body is converting some if to glucose then are you really getting enough protein? Are there enough aminos left for adequate cellular growth/recovery? AND why pay $6.99 a pound for some free range organic hippie chicken breast thats going to be converted into glucose? Probably be a lot more cost effective to just eat a fucking potato.

Ideally, on a low car diet youre aiming for whatever magical sweet spot macro split that allows all your protein to be used for recovery and just enough carbs to partially fill glycogen stores and nothing else. The variables in achieving this must be in the hundreds. Hence the importance in really tracking things and recording how you look and feel and learning about your body when it comes to contest prep.

 

[Mister A]

That is some good stuff, brother. I love learning about this sort of thing. You Vikings were big for a reason. Think about all that fish and the poultry they must have eaten. Organic as all hell. Good doctors will tell you the first thing you should do to treat any disease is adjust your diet. What we put in our bodies is almost always the cause of our suffering or the reason for our vigor. The fact that there could be such a strong link to our ancestors diet is fascinating. Maybe I should start eating more Pasta Primavera and Chicken Parm lol. I might get jacked. You're one hell of a contributor yourself brother. Always interested in your posts.

 

[blastthru23]

Thanks MrA, glad i could contribute. Your ancestors probably ate something similar, guess it would be the iron age perhaps. I fully believe that most ailments both psychological, and physical. But with all the crap that ends up in our meats and veggies, it isn't going to compare to what our ancestors ate. If I lived in an area where hunting was allowed, and didnt have yo travel to Timbuktu, you bet I'd be getting me some wild meat. I'd be down for some deer, pheasant, and some fresh water fish. Grew up on that stuff. Now I live the urban life, eating the best i can, and training just as hard. But always room for improvement! At any rate, I'm going to be looking into this keto diet, as I'm nearing the end of what turned out to be a fucking awesome cycle, thanks to all of muscle freaks, brains and brawn in these parts!

 

[SharonKY]

No bloating since....except on my birthday when I ate bread (had a burger) and a few bites of a cupcake. 

I feel like I am under control, but I can tell you that my calories are only about 950 a day....I just cannot fit anymore in my body...my protein is only 128g, 80g carbs, and 50g fat (good fats).  Sigh...I should be eating like 1400 a day...too bad they dont make "good for you" Doriots!

 

[SharonKY]

This is VERY interesting....I am of Sicilian decent....and one who hates pasta (my father always said I was the milkman's kid)......I might look at this approach as well and work some of those elements in to my diet.
Thank you so much!!!

 

[SharonKY]

you can buy those strips at Walgreens 100 for $17

 

[blastthru23]

Good morning Sharon, glad you like that idea. It's definitely a good starting point, however, you have to look back to early centuries, e.g., iron age, for a good reference. Of course, i our unique circumstances we have to some tayloring to account for modernity, and bb specific goals. One writer claimed that vikings ate 11,000 cals per day, and unless that was because they were eating huge chunks of fat, i believe his hypothesis to be wildly off! They'd be doing nothing but eating all day! It's quite amazing what our bodies will/can do on very little when it's working efficiently and healthily. Constructively, that's absolutely one of the goals in our community of freaks

 

[swolesam]

sharon - utilize protein shakes to your advantage, average 20-30g protein per serving. If you take 1 before bed and 1 in morning, thats 40-60g of protein JUST from liquid protein. Believe me it puts a dent into the protein intake per day. Make sure to go to labdoor.com/rankings/protein and check your protein ranking, free registration too. If its free, its for me

 

[SemperFi]

Even better here and they ship free-

http://www.amazon.com/ZAEL-Perfect-Ketosis-Diabetics-Professional/dp/B01ACVRLJY?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00

SEMPER FI