Milk Thistle – Good for the liver, bad for androgen receptors?

NZT-49

New member
Please see below for an article I'm sure some of you have heard about. Personally, I think this study is bogus and Milk thistle's effects on one's adrogen receptors are negligible at best. I believe the study was carried out on cancer patients which there may have been other factors at play (such as radiation, etc.) What are your thoughts on this study?

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For years steroid users have been taking Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum, which contains the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin and the active component silibinin) to protect their livers from potentially hepatoxic oral steroids. In the Anabolics series of books, William Llewellyn talks about using this stuff as a liver protector. Well, he’s wrong…yeah, it’ll protect your liver, but it’s also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.
Less androgen receptor activity + less IGF-1 = less muscle and strength.

MuscleTech uses milk thistle in some of their products as does Universal (it’s in their Animal Pack and some others), as does Muscle Pharm and MHP (who stupidly included it in a product designed to boost testosterone). Anabolic Innovations includes Milk Thistle in a product called “Cycle Support“- so clearly this stuff is being marketed heavily towards steroid users. Llewellyn even includes it in his “Liver Stabil” product….but users will pretty quickly find out that it’s making them gain less muscle and strength.
In any case, I’ve never been a fan of this kind of thing, i.e. taking one thing to stop side effects from another…robbing Peter to pay Paul, or Ringo or whatever…. To my way of thinking, if your dose is too high, it’s too high, and adding another chemical into the mix (herbal or not), is not the solution. Sure, you can take a ton of steroids with liver protectors and anti-estrogens and all kinds of other stuff…but why wouldn’t you just cut the dose down and not take all the other crap?
Effects of SM and SB on whole cell AR levels (a), transcription activity of the AR promoter (b) and ligand-binding activity of the AR (c). The upper panel in (a) shows a representative western blot analysis of total AR protein levels in LNCaP cells and Ponceau S staining, representing protein loading. The lower panel in (a) is a densitometric analysis of total AR protein levels from three independent experiments.

We know that estrogen is necessary for optimal growth, so why would we mega-dose on steroids, but then take an anti-estrogen with them? Our gains will effectively be reduced in a similar way to simply taking a lower dose – which would obviously cost less (the savings from lowering the dose + not buying the anti-estrogen). Using a lower (non-side effect causing) dose seems to make more sense (or using non-aromatizing androgens). So why would we take a ton of (potentially toxic) oral steroids with a liver protector? What if I could make the case that taking a liver protector (*in this case, Milk Thistle) will actually cause your entire cycle to be less effective?

I’ve been doing some research into Milk Thistle recently, because it’s the most commonly used liver protector for steroid users. It’s sold at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc…and it not only works to protect the liver, it’s also pretty cheap. For years, mediocre supplement designers have been slamming this stuff into any formula that could be liver toxic, and then forgetting about it. It’s a no-brainer (literally). People just cram the stuff in their supplements without doing any real research.
The problem with Milk Thistle is that it inhibits certain functions within your androgen receptors, thereby making the steroids (androgens) you’re taking less effective – this is why it has been studied as a possible chemoprotective agent for androgen dependent cancers. The active component in Milk Thistle effectively reduces nuclear androgen receptor levels (click for the full study), and down-regulates several androgen-regulated genes primarily by inhibiting the transactivation activity of the AR, and can also inhibit nuclear localization of the androgen receptor. Admittedly this study only looks at certain site-specific androgen receptor cells, in certain situations, but I see no reason in the available data to think these effects wouldn’t be the case elsewhere.

I’ve also looked at several related studies, and I think that this stuff simply isn’t the best choice for liver protection. I’m not saying “don’t ever protect your liver with a supplement” – I’m saying find something other than Milk Thistle, ok? And lower the f*cking dose, or don’t use orals (like me) if you think you’re going to damage your liver. With the available information on Milk Thistle, why continue using the stuff? Certainly we know there are other things that protect the liver, and if we have reliable evidence that strongly suggests against Milk Thistle being ideal, then we shouldn’t be using it. Again, I’m not saying “don’t ever use anything to protect your liver” – I’m just arguing against this one product because I think it’s less than ideal for steroid users. In fact, there is additional information available that strongly suggests that Milk Thistle will also have an inhibitory effect on the insulin-like growth factor I receptor-mediated signaling pathway. All in all, there seems to be a reasonable expectation that this stuff is anti-anabolic. Lowering IGF-1 is important for treating cancer, which makes Milk Thistle a promising compound in that field.
Uncle Chop-Chop

Nobody is right all of the time, and I’ve probably thought this stuff was a good idea in the past, and even recommended it (like Llewellyn and a lot of other people), but the truth is that Milk Thistle looks like an extremely bad idea for use on a cycle – at least if you want your cycle to be as effective as possible. I know that these studies aren’t perfect (i.e. they don’t examine healthy, weight training individuals, using steroids, etc…), but I’m still reasonably confidant that Milk Thistle will inhibit your gains from a cycle, and that’s the bottom line. I don’t know how much. Maybe a little. Maybe a lot. Either way there’s better choices out there, and no, I don’t sell a liver-support product, and no I don’t have a vested interest in bashing Milk Thistle…nor am I saying not to protect your liver (because if your liver gets destroyed, you’ll die). I’m just saying that this shouldn’t be your first choice (or any choice, really). I wonder how many of these guys will be reformulating their products now?
 
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Dont_trip

Guest

Milk thistle is bro science imo.You want to protect your liver raw vegetable and fruit juice,Will smoke milk thistle any day of the week.Now as far as increasing androgen receptors I use Acetly-L Carnitine Ever since I incorporated it I feel the gear is being used more proficiently.There is a clinical study that everyone here should research it will blow you away with the results these guys got with 1.5 grams post workout.

 

NZT-49

New member
Perhaps, but in my experience loading up on milk thistle before taking 8 shots of hard liquor has a clear difference between when I did not take milk thistle. I can clearly drink more alcohol and keep a more level head while on milk thistle suggesting much better liver performance. So I am a believer in milk thistle.
 
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Dont_trip

Guest

curious to see someone get blood work with milk thistle on 1 protocol and then no milk thistle on the exact same drug protocol See if the enzyme level changes in any way then I will shut my mouth LOL =)

 

BuryMeBIG

New member

I personally think milk thistle honestly only would make a noticeable difference in someones life that shares the common grounds of that of a hippie, or one that lives there life in a "green tea" naturalistic fashion as ignorant as that may sound I know, lol no im just kidding, to be honest with you, I've never believed in milk thistle being a potent enough herb to be of any true significance to say, a AAS user, as one would think, or compared to supplements such as Liver 52, one would think..  but this led me to do a bit of research which i'd have to say, yielded some surprising results! I'll make it a quick version for ya'll and paraphrase and copy paste some interesting shit... let me start it off with a bang that may, or may not lol, suprise you.This herbs mechanisms of action have been proven to hold such a beneficial significance to the human liver that its not even an over the counter drug in Europe... you kidding me? So this shits been studied and used for over 2000 years as a natural treatment for liver disorders that actually hold more of a, detrimental should I say, or even easier, "deadly" consequence than that of what you'd expect from the toxicity of using AAS's, and today, it's been proven to be one of the strongest  remedies available for the following, BUT!! In its extracted form, milk thistle extract obviously, but let me quickly note, not all milk thistle is as legit as what im speaking of... it must be labeled "standardized" milk thistle, which still is guaranteed, or standardize to reflect 80% of its silymarin, the shit that we count of workin for us.. so if its not labeled "standardized" theres no telling how pure the stuff is, but if its 80%, and your taking 250mg of the shit, only 200mg of that total weight is actually the active ingredient.. but heres the list which is made by the United states library of medicine and national institutes of Health, and I quote: 


Milk thistle extract is prescribed to treat mushroom poisoning, alcoholic cirrhosis, chronic hepatitis, drug and alcohol-induced liver damage and acute viral hepatitis, just to name a few.


Milk thistle extract is used to maintain liver health and to protect the liver from the effects of toxins such as alcohol, a polluted environment or workplace, and a host of liver related diseases.


Liver related conditions indicating the use of milk thistle are varied, including, but not limited to:



  • Alcoholic cirrhosis

  • Chronic active hepatitis

  • Drug and alcohol induced liver damage

  • Acute viral hepatitis

  • Fatty liver, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), and nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH)

  • Fibrosis and Cirrhosis

  • Hepatic toxicity caused by steroid usage

  • Environmental sensitivities and toxins

  • A medical condition that necessitates the use of hepatotoxic medications

  • Regular moderate-to-heavy alcohol use


Additionally, experimental and clinical studies suggest that milk thistle extracts also have the following non-liver related benefits:



  • Lowers cholesterol levels, which benefits the heart

  • Reduces the growth of cancer cells in breast, lung, colon, prostate, cervical and renal cancers

  • Functions as a therapeutic agent for the prevention of Alzheimer's disease

  • Improves blood sugar levels

  • Contains numerous anti-aging properties

  • Reduces cell damage caused by radiation and chemotherapy treatments

  • Supplements sunscreen protection and may be useful against multiple types of skin disease

  • Works as a free radical scavenger and powerful antioxidant

  • Reduces hot flashes and other related menopausal symptoms

  • Helps with intestinal / indigestion issues

  • Reduces the effects of deathcap mushroom (Amanita phalloides) poisoning


Alright, well, aside from a list, lets review some facts, check it out:


Double blind studies on the effect of milk thistle on toxic liver damage (mostly alcohol-related), chronic liver disease and disease caused by certain drugs have been reviewed by medical experts. The experts all concluded that milk thistle is an extremely therapeutically useful medicinal plant product that stabilizes the cell membrane and stimulates protein synthesis while accelerating the process of regeneration in damaged liver tissue. These effects are important in the therapeutic efficacy of milk thistle.


According to other studies, milk thistle may protect the cells of the liver by blocking the entrance of harmful toxins and helping remove these toxins from liver cells. As with other flavonoids, milk thistle is a powerful antioxidant which works to maintain health and energy by protecting the body from damage caused by free radicals and lipid peroxidation, which can injure healthy cells and tissues. Just as grapes and red wine, for example, are touted as excellent sources of antioxidants, milk thistle also contains the properties needed to offer the body the same antioxidant benefits.


Over the past forty years, intensive chemical, pharmacological and clinical research has confirmed the active ingredient that holds true value of milk thistle in a wide range of human liver-related and non-liver-related conditions. Literally hundreds of modern research studies have confirmed the remarkable ability of milk thistle to protect the liver and the body against virtually all types of damage.


Additionally, the United States National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) have catalogued more than 400 scientific studies of milk thistle and its active compounds in their medicine database. These studies reflect what generations past knew and depended on – that milk thistle is one of the most valuable and beneficial herbal remedies and treatments available anywhere in the world.


Hold up, one more time..." that milk thistle is one of the most valuable and beneficial herbal remedies and treatments available anywhere in the world."


I call BS... ill stick to liver 52... hahahaha jk jk... take it as it is... hope theres some info to help yall consider its use or not... ill give it a "in between" try I guess... haha why not..

 

BuryMeBIG

New member

On the other hand!! you want to read some shit thats pretty informative to the average person, heres an article I actually read a while ago that covers actually now, almost all the bases, theres a part 2 to it, start here, read on..


http://www.metabolicalchemy.com/essential-supplements-for-the-anabolic-user-part-1/

 

Standingup

New member

whats the list of ingredients in Liv 52 ?   I was actually quite disappointed to find out this most popular highly touted liver supplements does not even contain the best liver protection available which is NAC. The really funny thing is Liv 52 contains nothing more than " hippie herbs " . 


  Ive always used NAC and milk thistle and had reasonably good liver values. 

 

NZT-49

New member
In that case, maybe we should all roll up a J of milk thistle to get the maximal benefits.

Maybe that's why you guys are not seeing results and are disbelievers of the thistle. :)
 
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dolfanshan

Guest

Also drinking lots of water. Don't discount the purifying properties of good ole H2O. I use milk thistle,  but I also drink tons of water.

 

prettyboy83

New member
I've read so many peer reviewd medical articles about Milk Thistle and the only conclusion they can bring up is that, "It may work for some". I'm not willing to chance it on a possibility of being effective. The Liver protectant you should look into is TUDCA or Tauroursodeoxycholic acid. This stuff has been researched and the science behind its' affects on our liver is backed.



Tauroursodeoxycholic acid (TUDCA) is an ambiphilic bile acid. It is the taurine conjugate form of ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA). Humans are found to have trace amounts of TUDCA. However, bears contain large amounts of TUDCA in their bile; UDCA and conjugates comprise about 47% of the bile in American black bears and up to 76% in Asiatic bears.[1] TUDCA has been used in ancient Asian pharmacopoeias for its supposed beneficial effects. UDCA is produced in several countries for the treatment of gallstones and liver cirrhosis. It is not approved by the Food and Drug Administration, in the U.S. while UDCA is approved in the United States for the treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis [2][3] Ongoing research is finding TUDCA has diminishing apoptotic effects, helping with cardiac function, Huntington's disease, Parkinson's Disease, and stroke.[4] Recently, TUDCA has been found to have protective effects in the eye, especially concerning retinal degenerative disorders.
 
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