New and need advice

[BobbyO190]

Hello everyone. So glad I found this web site.

I have been doing a lot wrong and welcome any advice! Especially where I am obviously just so blatantly ignorant.

Background: 52 year old male. 190 lbs. 15-20% body fat. Work out every day, rotation of weight lifting one day and Yoga or bicycle the next.

Started taking 1ml of testosterone once a week about five months ago. Supplier went away two months ago and thus I was off for a few weeks....new supplier provided Sustanon and advised .8ml twice a week and I have been doing that for five weeks.

Love the feel and love the results BUT I just learned I should be taking Aramidix so I bought some and am taking one pill every other day.

Now today reading I have learned that I might need an off cycle and I might need to be taking HGC or something like that to keep my natural production working.

Pure ignorance is asking this but WHY an off cycle? Almost hate to do it honestly. And why the HGC and how much should I be taking.

I want to be safe and thus I need the advice and I think you in advance for everything you have to share!!! I truly appreciate it!

 

[blastthru23]

First, welcome to mg, you're in the right place. Next, what is the actual dose of sustanon you're taking per week? Sus comes in different mg/ml, so this is important. Depending on the dosage, you may be running a "cycle" amount rather than a trt/cruise amount. 

HCG. There are different opinions on whether one needs to use this. Some use it to keep the testicles from shrinking; I use it myself for that purpose. 

Arimidex. It is good to take it to keep e2 from becoming elevated due to the exogenous testosterone being converted into E2. Adex dose and timing depends on the dose of test one is taking and how e2 sensitive you are. Each person is different and will often need more or less of an ai. Bloods will help one ascertain e2 levels. Usually, one will take half a tab of adex at certain intervals. Some take it every 3 days, some twice a week, others on an as needed basis. Depends, again, on the individual need and sensitivity.

Have you got your blood work done? If so, what are the results? If not, it's compulsor to do so. Best to do the blood work after coming off of the sus. But, while on is good too. Further, the panel you choose (one below 1500, or one that tests greater than 1500) will be determined by the amount of test you at taking weekly.

 

[BobbyO190]

Wow. thank you so much for your thoughts and insight.

I hopes or more help let me answer your questions as best I can. 

The Sustanon is "Tesosterone Sustanon 350mg/ml"

No I have not had the blood work done.

How much 'HCG' should be taken if taken and one extra question if you don't mind.

Why take an off cycle?

Greatly looking forward to your reply and insights!

 

[blastthru23]

So, you are basically on cycle at 560mg per week for five weeks. Plus five weeks prior with a two week break in between.  So, technically you've done a 12 week cycle, though that also depends on what you were  using prior to the "break."

I will say right now that I am no expert, but I will give you what I would do given your age. I would get some testosterone enanthate or cypionate, and begin dosing around 150mg per week. This will bring you into a TRT dose range. And, after 4 weeks get bloods done. You're looking to have your total test no greater than 1100.  Typically, time off equals time on. So, in your case you would pin 150mg (adjusted if necessary) for AT LEAST 12 weeks.

Another thing, research the symptoms elevated E2. Each individual will have different sides from elevated E2. See if you have any of these, but continue to dose with an aromatase inhibitor. Now, if you have elevated lipids (LDL), the aromatasr inhibitor you should use is aromasin as arimidex elevates cholesterol in many individuals.

Some sides from E2 include but are not limited to, acne, swollen hands or feet, water retention, lethargy, and moodiness. There are sides that are not so visible as well, but, I'm not the person to explain all of the ins and outs of the hormonal dynamics involved here.

Hcg dosage is 500 to 1000 iu  per week (2x 250 iu, or 500 iu. I personally have done both and have experienced little if any difference between the dosages).

 

[BobbyO190]

Thank you so much for the quick replies and advice! 

So if I am following correctly the purpose of an off cycle is:

A) To ensure your body can still work on it's own and avoid becoming dependent

B) To avoid the E2 build up

C) To avoid potential liver damage?

As for HCG is that for taking during 'cycle; or during 'off cycle'?

This is all extremely fascinating. I hope I am not asking too much and thank you again for all of the shared knowledge.

PS: Took nothing prior to the Testoterone...not in my whole life. Never had any idea where or how. Not to mention I spent the last 25 years weighing between 250-285 and no exercise. Didn't start trying to get healthy again until after 50.

 

[Titanings]

First of all when I read this I kind of cringed a lil bit because I had a bad cycle myself due to lack of knowledge, poor advice, and being unfamiliar with steroids and how to use them safely. So therefore lets get you on the right track. I will be straight forward about whats going on.

So from what you said I take it you found a supplier for testosterone and used it until he left then leaving you without anything for a few weeks until you found a new one (and you probably were starting to feel terrible with almost flu like symptoms once going past 2 weeks without injections) and then you started taking testosterone again. So now what that means is that you basically you did a cycle (time period of steroid use like 12 weeks) of testosterone with no PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) and then started another cycle. Now the problem with this lies in the fact that your normal testosterone production was unable to completely restart before you stopped its production again (ANY steroids will shut down your normal testosterone production over 95%). Now once its shut down for a long period of time you take a chance of damaging your HPTA (hyperthalimus gland) which is what sends the signals to your testes to produce testosterone, and you can spend the rest of your entire life having to take test injections every single week if your HPTA is damaged. Now if you have low (especially zero) testosterone it can be a miserable and painful life and can even be deadly. Which is the reason TRT (Testosterone Replacement Therapy) patients take injections for the rest of their life, and when they do cycles its called Blast and Cruize, cuz they never stop taking injections. So now that I have explained all that you now realize the importance of cycling on off.

Now second thing is your AI (Aromatise Inhibitor) that your taking called Arimidex or Adex for short. Its purpose is to control estrogen. Testosterone converts to estrogen through Aromatization, therefore when you are injecting with test every week not only are you geting high test levels but your also getting high estrogen (also called estradiol or e2) levels as well and this can be miserable and painful and can be very unhealthy if it gets really high. Therefore you take an AI like arimidex to keep the estrogen down. Now do be warned since you are over 50 that arimidex can be hard on your cholesterol. It can lower your HDL (good cholesterol). So Arimidex usually comes in 1mg pills, and if your taking one of those every other day you are probably lower your estrogen too much which again can be unhealthy. Arimidex is normally taken at .5mg (half a pill) EOD (Every Other Day) or e3d (Every 3 days). And this is usually more than enough for most normal people. Now do realize some people are whats known as estrogen sensitive and it varies greatly per individual. So if you feel your nipples beginning to itch and burn then your probably in the beginning stages of gynocemastia and you will need to up the dosage up to 1mg per day to get it back under control. But from what you have said so far it doesn't sound like you are having signs of that at the moment.

Sustanon 350 means that for every 1mL it has 350 mg in it. Therefore .8mL equals 280mg times two shots a week =560mg a week. 500mg a week is the norm for beginners and some intermediate users alike depending on their cycle. So therefore do not go above this .8mL (.7 or just under 3/4 of a mL would be closer to the norm). If you take more than that a week all it will do is be more prone to give you side effects! and you will gain almost no more benefit from it.

Now last of all we have PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) This is your nolvadex and clomid. They are normally taken 2 weeks after your last injection and will go on a week/week/week/week basis for 1 month. What they do is basically send a LH and FSH signal to your testes telling them to produce testosterone again. Now the problem is that your testes get atrophy (testicle shrinkage) from producing no testosterone for months on end. And even though your taking nolvadex and clomid to help give extra signal to start, your testes are still slow to recover and take time to swell back and get back to full production again. Therefore a lot of ppl will use HCG to help "kick start" the testes into producing testosterone before they start their PCT. Me personally I use 1000iu of HCG per day for 10 days before my PCT starts and start my PCT the next day after my last HCG injection. Now others especially some of those on TRT will use HCG while on cycle to help with atrophy, but do be warned over usage may result in the bodies permanent dependence on HCG to produce testosterone. And considering you sound like you had no PCT between your last 2 cycles I would probably advise at least 10 days at 500 iu's a day before your next PCT to help get your testes fired up again.

So now I have explained most everything of importance, now its up to you how to safely proceed from here! Here is a layout of exactly what a good, safe, first cycle of test should like:

https://musclegurus.to/forum/anabolic-steroids/new-to-steroids-start-here/92480-first-cycle-checklist-and-shopping-list

Please read through it. Now along with everything else I have told you now you should be on a good start to getting yourself straightened out, and please ask if you have any more questions!

 

 

[strong]

These guys have you covered. I do want to add that Sust is not your best Test t use. It needs to be pinned 3 times a week minimum in my opinion. Sust typically has 3 to 4 different Esters. Definitely not the proper choice for this gentleman.  Can it be used for you? Yes, Just not recommended.

Look for Test Cyp.  Food for thought...

Oh, Welcome to MG...

 

[BobbyO190]

Thank you guys so much! Wish I had known you before.

Okay...sounds like time to find some HCG novaldex and clomid. Huge help. Thanks again everyone and any additional thought is still extremely welcome! Doubt I can do much but please let me know if I can ever be of any service to you guys as a thank you!

 

[blastthru23]

Hold on there big fella! If u are going to do HCG, do it BEFORE you start pct (looks like that's what you're planning on, good choice). HCG and I believe clomid do not interact well. I don't recall the why and wherefore, I just know that you don't run a put protocol and HCG. Look into the threads here on MG, the HCG thing is here somewhere. Probably search HCG in the search bar at the top of the forum page.

 

 

[SemperFi]

Don't discount the idea of discontinuing ALL use and not starting anything (AAS, HCG, PCT) until you are better educated and have a well thought out plan in place. In fact it is your safest option. You will also need a contingency plan in case things go south. Regular blood work is a must for responsible AAS or TRT use. Blood work is also helpful once you complete PCT.

You kind of got your cart before the horse with no horse. I got to shake my head here Bobby and say you are playing a dangerous game with no idea what you are doing. Asking for swimming lessons AFTER you are already in the deep end of the pool is not the way to go. My bottom line advice is to avoid everything until you are ready. Tough love brother.

 

SEMPER FI

 

[BobbyO190]

Thanks All!

Tons to try to digest! 

I will get on it and hopefully track down some HCG and then some Novaldex and Clomid.

Any thoughts on a product called Exemestane vs Clomid? 

Great help guys and while it's true. I am learning exactly as I learned to swim...jump in and drown or swim...it's darned nice to have help and encouragement so I don't drown!

Truly wish I had known about this before hand so I could have started correctly in the first place but awful grateful for the help in getting readjusted and on the right track!

 

[BobbyO190]

Thanks All!

Tons to try to digest! 

I will get on it and hopefully track down some HCG and then some Novaldex and Clomid.

Any thoughts on a product called Exemestane vs Clomid? 

Great help guys and while it's true. I am learning exactly as I learned to swim...jump in and drown or swim...it's darned nice to have help and encouragement so I don't drown!

Truly wish I had known about this before hand so I could have started correctly in the first place but awful grateful for the help in getting readjusted and on the right track!

 

[blastthru23]

Exemestane and clomid are two different animals. Look them up, and get acquainted.  I'm going to have to agree with SemperFi on this topic. Since it seems you've been on test for a short period, it may very well be in your best interest to stop. Wait about 4 weeks and get bloods before buying anything else. In that time, research research research. Start on the right foot, rather than stumbling into the dark hoping for the best.

Know what nolvadex, clomid, arimidex, and aromasin are, what the do, and when to use them, because these things are different than say aspirin where you pop a few for a headache. This is very different. 

Know WHY you want to run aas, and get an idea of the result you seek.  

Again, don't worry so much about buying more stuff, I know it's pretty cool, and easy. But get your bloods done first, and Know and understand what the numbers mean. Then proceed from there.

We are here to help, and only want the best for you. I'll admit here, that my first post was in error, as it's my tendency to be "the cool parent" and let the kids drink beer so long as they do it at home. Not a good idea. So, sorry about that, didn't mean to be irresponsible with the info I first gave out. I'm still learning too

 

[Titanings]

I completely agree 100% that you need to get blood work done to make sure everything is ok. This should be your top priority. I also agree that you are not on a cycle but actually in crisis management at this point with no idea where your estrogen levels are, Lipid levels are(cholesterol), where your blood pressure is at, whether you have water weight gain. I mean there is a million things that could be wrong right now and you have no clue whats actually going on in your body!

Now what I DO KNOW is that you have been taking test for months and that your testosterone production is at a stand still right now. Therefore I would NOT advise you to just stop taking everything WITHOUT A PCT. One thing I do know 100% is that your testes are shut down and at your age if you stop taking everything you will be in an absolute painful miserable existence for MONTHS while waiting and hoping that your test production starts up again. So therefore what I do know is that you need a PCT RIGHT NOW.

So I agree with these guys 100% that you need to get off everything ASAP! BUT you need to do it WISELY. And what I mean by that is this:

1-YOU NEED BLOODWORK DONE ASAP

2-You need to order 5000 iu's of HCG, 2100mg of CLOMID, and 840 mg of NOLVADEX right now, not next week or when you get around to it. If you have a dealer get these from him right now.

3-As soon as you have the HCG, CLOMID, and NOLVADEX IN HAND STOP TAKING YOUR INJECTIONS.

4-As soon as it has been 14 days after your LAST injection, then on the 15th day (because its sustanon) take 500 iu's a day for 10 days of the HCG, THE DAY AFTER YOUR LAST HCG injection start taking the CLOMID and NOLVADEX. Take them for 4 weeks at the dosages in the beginner link (scroll up)

5-TAKE TIME OFF TO RECOVER AND RESEARCH YOUR ASS OFF BEFORE YOU TAKE ANYTHING ELSE.

As a side note you will need at least 10 of the 1mL insulin syringes (you can use normal injection syringe to mix it), at least 5ml of bac water, and alcohol swabs for the HCG. Then go watch a video on how to reconstitute HCG. at 5mL of bac water to 5000 iu's of HCG that means 1mL will equal 1000 iu's of HCG. So take 1/2 or .5 mL a day for 10 days THEN START PCT.

I apologize to everyone if this seems short or rude, but I have come off a cycle with no PCT and I will just say when you are over 40 its fucking horrible. I would NEVER recommend that to anyone!!!

Then after you have done this come back and I would gladly discuss putting together a new cycle for you once all this plus your bloodwork is done and you know where everything stands my friend. SAFETY FIRST!

 

 

[Titanings]

I write that about HCG and the PCT because when I came off a cycle with no PCT whatsoever I had no energy, no drive,my body hurt and ached and I had flu like symptoms at times, I fought depression, and a whole multitude of horrible things that I wouldn't wish on anyone, and definitely don't want to see happen to this poor gentlemen. That is the reason why we always yell you absolutely must have a PCT when coming off cycle....no exceptions. Yes I did live to tell about it but a couple times I almost didn't. My bipolar went crazy, I was horribly cranky and irratible, and luckily I didn't lose my wife for whom I have been with for over 20 years or my family, but a couple times even that was sketchy. So this is the reason why I say right now he is in crisis management. This is the reason why I absolutely think he should be off the gear ASAP and starting his PCT. This is the reason why I stated what I did above and advised him like I did and I will not change my opinion on it.

So therefore Semper my friend step back into the light with us. What I mean by that is this my brotha:

Yes I agree 100% with you that there is no such thing as completely safe steroid use, there is only responsible and irresponsible use. THEREFORE that is why this website is here, to help guide people as safely as possible down their path. Most people who come here have already made up their minds on whether they are going to use gear and that is why they are here, and at times what we say isn't what they want to hear and they leave to their own demise. A lot even have the same story as this gentlemen. They have already started a cycle with no clue to the side effects, what they are taking and why, what safe dosages are, or a handful of other things that make their use irresponsible or even down right dangerous.  .........BUT

That is why people like you, dolf, blast, cheezy, myself and so many others are here. So we can try and be teachers and mentors and try to push them down the safest, most responsible path we can. At least I know that's why I am here. I don't think for a second we are drug pushers, I don't think that's correct at all for a lot of the people I have met here. Hell if anything our first answers will be leave the gear alone, go diet and exercise and work your ass off and see if you can accomplish your goal without it.

In the end I cant make up peoples minds or tell them what to do. All I can do is advise them to be as safe and responsible as possible. And then everything else is up to them. You my friend are one of the best I have seen at it. Be a friend, be a mentor, be a teacher, bring that experience and wisdom and immense knowledge you have to the table and enrich and change someones life for the better! Besides if that's not why we are here then whats the point?

 

[Titanings]

error 404 strikes again!

 

[strong]

+2 for the statement, "There is no such thing as safe steroid use"  I Remember a couple years ago DT was having it out with someone about safe use. He was like "C'mon, Really"  The key is to monitor your use.  Checking BP, Donating blood, Bloodwork, Supplementing, diet. tons of water are a few things to make Steroid use Safer.

I believe this site has always been this way and you are just recognizing it and admitting it. Its easier for us older guys to SEE things. We have life experience and can most likely relate to our mortality easier than a younger guy. I am on cycle now and I love it. No doubt but after a lot of my experiences I've toned it down. My current cycle is approx. 600 mgs of prop and 50 mgs of proviron. I did use Dbol for only 2 weeks.  Point being, as I get closer to 50 YO I've toned everything down but I am certainly not a safe person in anything I do... 

 

[SemperFi]

</p><p>I apologize to everyone if this seems short or rude, but I have come off a cycle with no PCT and I will just say when you are over 40 its fucking horrible.</p><p>

</p><p>But you lived to tell about it. I am sorry you had to go through that and I can imagine you wouldn't want to wish that experience on anyone.</p><p>This is not specifically directed towards you Titanings. I simply felt this was an appropriate place to get it off my chest.</p><p>There is not such thing as safe steroid use. There is responsible use and irresponsible use. Time for all of us drug pushers and drug users to admit it and stop playing with the health of people we do not know.</p><p>If we were TRULY concerned about the OP (learned what that means a few days ago) based on the very limited information that was and has been provide we would never recommend that he continue steroid use and placing himself in harms way.  What if the OP has a coke or meth addiction he did not share? What if he has a major health issue that he did not disclose? What if.....etc.</p><p>Bobby - I am not accusing you of being deceptive or being at fault. My greatest concern is that you remain healthy and remain safe. Sorry if this appears personal but I was using your post to prove a point.</p><p>I am just as guilty as the next person but this site is becoming a place where drug use is condoned and trumps the individuals health. Maybe it has always been that way and I am finally recognizing it or admitting it. We are a bunch of drug users and in some cases pushers with very few members that are interested beyond that.</p><p>The excuse that they are going to use anyway so I want to make sure they use safely is BS. That is defeatist, that is irresponsible, and that is wrong. </p><p> </p><p>SEMPER FI</p>

 

[SemperFi]

Some times the greatest enemy to doing the right thing is doing a good thing. 

“The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim.” - Sun Tzu

</p><p>I don't think for a second we are drug pushers 

</p><p>Position awareness helps us see the truth in most situations and it is perfectly reasonable for someone to deny that they are a drug pusher. Our viewpoint is limited by our position on the matter. I have seen the view from both vantage points and my view is perfectly clear- this site (and every other review site) is designed purposely to push steroid drug use.</p><p> </p><p>SEMPER FI</p><p> </p>

 

[blastthru23]

"We" may not be drug pushers, however, we are instrumental in the sale of aas. Each time we review a source, recommend a compound, or otherwise advise a member on use, we benefit a source who at the of the day makes a sale. We are constructively pushing whether we like it or not. Is it a "bad" thing? That depends...