blastthru23
Moderator
Wait, what? 17 reps?! Ummm I have a wasayyysss to go to reach that! I'd have to start a pure strength training program. Maybe some day 
blastthru23
Moderator
Gotta get the tendons and ligaments accustomed to heavy also. I see so many new guys, scrawny dudes just starting out trying to lift more than they can handle. Sure, they can push or pull the weight for a few sloppy reps, but they have to lay the foundation first. Back when I was squatting body weight, I'd load the bar up heavier, walk off and hold it for a bit then do a set of half reps just to get my body aware of the weight. Then slowly progress until I was parallel. It's amazing how fast strength will increase when I have a strategy to avoid getting injured. Now, I'm doing 315 for 8 sets of 8 (quitting the cigs helped with endurance too).
Then there are the guys who bench hella weight using momentum and bouncing the bar off their chest. Sure, they are strong but they look like shit. But, maybe that's what they want to do, that is move hella wait not caring that they look like crap naked lol. Each person, I think, has a slight or even vast difference in why they train. To each his or her own; no harm no foul. Me? I want my cake and I want to eat it too.
Dont_trip
Guest
and there was a time
thst I was like man I just want a chest that looks like I can bench 500lbs as I have gotten bigger and bigger and better I laugh at that thought I used to have that is like saying you want a Lamborghini with a Volkswagen beetle
engine, all show no go is no good but I workout like a bodybuilder I do incorporate strength sets because it would be silly for
me atleast with the shoulders or chest I have to be only
able
to bench 185 or shoulder press 60lb dumbell a not that there's nothing wrong with that. I love the bodybuilding look and as a
natural occurance
the strength is awesome
too
blastthru23
Moderator
For me, like you, I use strength sets mixed with Bb sets. If I'm gonna look strong I want the strength to back it up. Admittedly, however, I'm training more for size and composition than strength. Had to choose one as the primary. I'm chasing SF's legs, I want trees that look like fuckin rocks too, dammit! Lol.
I must say I read this:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/inside-the-muscles-best-chest-and-triceps-exercises
And was really surprised by some of the numbers. My first thought is why they hell have I never done guillotine presses before! The muscle contraction and peak for those was unreal, I guarantee you I will be doing some of those on bench day! Another that really surprised me was that incline barbell and dumbbell did so poorly for upper chest?!?! I mean that's a go to staple for a big chest for bodybuilders.....puzzling. Also I found it really interesting that the 225 barbell bench actually incorporated the upper and middle chest more than the 275, where on the 275 it seemed to hit more in the lower chest and triceps.
Now after reading a couple of those like chest, shoulders, and some triceps the thing I found really interesting is that some of the exercises actually hit the targeted muscle better with a lil bit lower weight, like the 225,275 bench analysis above where once the weight was higher it went more into lower chest and triceps. Now after some thinking on this I have come up with a hypothesis:
I think once you push a weight up closer to your 1RM I think you lose some "control" of the weight and being able to focus on controlling the peak concentric (flex) or eccentric (stretching) contraction and the muscles becomes overloaded and therefore your body has to start compensating by engaging muscles differently to push or pull the weight to its intended position. Prime example is the 225, 275 barbell bench. At 225 the upper and middle chest were more involved, but as soon as he did 275 it shifted to less upper and middle chest to the lower chest and triceps contracting much harder. Therefore I assume he was having to put more body into helping him push (like pushing more with his legs and arching his back more) to get the weight up, therefore losing some of the control he had with 225 in order to push the 275 up to the same position. Because lets face it in the end it takes more force to move 275lbs than 225lbs. So therefore I think we can get what is refered to as "cheating" by bodybuilders when doing reps, even though it may only be slightly. Like the guy swinging the 50 lb dumbbells with his whole body, like he is doing some crazy latin dance for 6 reps....nice fully body workout bro! I know this is BADLY overstating it, but I did so to prove the point
Therefore in conclusion my opinion from reading that is once a certain weight is reached you lose some of the isolation, technique, and control of the rep therefore losing some of the hypertrophy that could be achieved for bodybuilding.
I also conclude that this becomes much less relevant for strength training, as they focus primarily on using their whole body to push as much weight as humanly possible. And is also why you will see a difference in the physique of powerlifters vs bodybuilders.
lol so there is my 2 cents
Dont_trip
Guest
Was pretty cool we also have to remember there is a genetic factor to muscle recruitment. For example, I am upper pec dominant. Doing dumbbell pullovers, no matter the weight, the emphasis is always on my upper pecs. But it is fascinating that on flat bench lower pec recruitment is almost non existent and as the weight gets heavy there is more lower pec recruitment. Tut training is important but explosive training is just as important. You have to have phases of eccentric and concentric explosive training.
Dolf
Moderator
If you remember I used to always say I never want to look bigger than I am strong.
Honestly though imo it shouldn't matter what someone else thinks. As long as you are happy with yourself, and what you're doing, and how you're progressing that's what counts. If someone else thinks I should be 8% bf rather than 10%, or if I should weigh 240lbs instead of 220lbs, or if I should be repping 3 plates rather than 2 plates, or that I really should gel my cowlick down, or I should have on the newest Nikes rather that the 10 year old Chuck Taylors I'm wearing that's their problem not mine. They haven't seen where I started. They don't know where I'm at now, and they don't know where I'm headed. As long as you're happy and satisfied then good for you. Now for me personally I'm never happy because I always feel I could do or be better no matter what, but that's just my disposition. That attitude has gotten me where I'm at in life today, and I'm too old and hard headed to change.
Mister A
Guest
This has been a great read so far! Awesome insight from DT, Blast, Titan and SF. All of you guys have contributed to one hell of a conversation. You've given the discussion a lot of shape and it's making more sense than ever. I have been kicking something around in my head the last couple months since starting the HIT style training and now because of this conversation, I can actually find the right words to discuss it. It seems like everyone is right there too and we're just not seeing this other piece to the puzzle.
Mister A
Guest
I was referring to High Intensity Training as per the Dorian Yates philosophy of one set to failure per exercise.
Appreciate the compliment but I'd take your leg development over my strength any day of the week. I have decent sized legs but leg press has always been a strength of mine. I tried to surpass 17 and only made it to 15 last week. However, I did max out with my son the other day and put up some good numbers for me in the big 3. Finally danger close to 500 squat and dead... 50 lbs to go in bench to hit my goal of 400 which in bench is a ways off. Anyway my numbers have come up despite moving from super heavy all the time to progressive heavy a few times a week and a shit ton of high reps and high volume. I think it was the exact change I needed to progress further. Strange thing is I wasn't shooting for max lifts, just maintaining my strength in core lifts while focusing on hypertrophy and higher reps. I can only attribute the progress to doing something much different in my training and an overall better diet despite my mishaps in overeating. Another thing that has helped is high rep assessor work, i.e., rack pulls, sumo deads, hyper extensions, bench squats, block assisted bench press, etc. Mind you I went as heavy as possible for 8-15 rep range.
ESmetalhead
New member
Jesus! SF!
Dont_trip
Guest
hiit style training was very optimal for him but the problem for 99.9% of lifters is they cannot do the intensity he did. I'm a believer in high volume. It's an apple and tomato comparison because unless you have the mind muscle control Dorian Yates had nobody in this forum or any other forum has. The idea behind his training is to workout very briefly because while training it's a catabolic process, your digging a catabolic hole 2 feet deep. So when your done training you can recover at a faster rate, where as a high volume training you dig a 6 foot hole becoming catabolic now you have to fill back in the dirt with rest nutrients to become anabolic again
Dont_trip
Guest
hiit style training was very optimal for him but the problem for 99.9% of lifters is they cannot do the intensity he did. I'm a believer in high volume. It's an apple and tomato comparison because unless you have the mind muscle control Dorian Yates had nobody in this forum or any other forum has. The idea behind his training is to workout very briefly because while training it's a catabolic process, your digging a catabolic hole 2 feet deep. So when your done training you can recover at a faster rate, where as a high volume training you dig a 6 foot hole becoming catabolic now you have to fill back in the dirt with rest and nutrients to become anabolic again. Science has proven that volume is a form of progressive overload and has been shown to increase muscle mass. DY style also has an anabolic component to it. I love high volume training because its like a date night with my wife and I love to watch her body become physically better week in and week out. She pushes me and I push her. We learn from each other and grow from each other and both love high volume