TEST / EQ / 16-20 weeks add HGH or IGF?

[turnupthegas]

Prior to posting up cycle log on what i'm, planning on attempting as always I'd appreciate some feedback from the fam.

Not gonna get to in depth to training and diet regimen, but know that I'm one anal retentive OCD bastard and its dialed in to a T. I will have some diet questions, but will hit up @mrfixit and a few select others for some more diet advice! Have you seen his competition pictures? looks to be doing everything right!

Anyway long and skinny is test and eq right through. while esters rise contemplating a dbol kickstart for 4 weeks or an NPP EOD for 4 weeks on the front side of the cycle.

on the back side I will switch to prop last 4 weeks and either go with (prop/var) (prop/mast) or (prop/win)

goal is slower lean bullk for a good 16 week and then try to lean out on the back side from a BF perspective under the assumption that I could reduce calories but still have enough anabolics in me to preserve muscle. When I say reduce I also do not mean in a deficit, but back to a TDE type nature where I'm eating just what I need with the hopes that newly gained muscle combined with not eating in a surplus will drop bf without having to restrict my calories.

Now my main question is this. I've been at this some time with aas and I can put on the size and I can lean out, I feel I have plateued in a sense with what my body is capable of doing naturally. 

Genetics are obviouslly a huge part of this, I come from a long line of tall thin Irish Fishermen lol For me at 6' 190 lbs I don't move much past that number. I'm not looking to be over 200 and massive, but my lean weight is around 165 when i hit 190 i'm basically puffy round with higher bf.

I would like to be at a place where i'm 180-185 and lean in the next two years and i'm dancing with the idea of GH and creating new muscle cells vs just growing muscle cells with aas. It seems like a logical approach if I want to get bigger and not watch the gains dissipate like they do after a cycle. PCT kicks my ass and shits on my hard work, even when I attempt to do everything right in my off months?

Just looking for some insight and if so am I better with IGF or GH - some say IGF is better on cycle unless you have enough GH to run 2 months before cycle and during pct because of the time it takes to really reap the rewards and that IGF-1 wil get to work quicker and yield similar results just by a different mechanism.

So IGF or GH or if you think niether how would you layout the compounds above?

I'm 37 and don't want to commit to a trt protocol at this age, I'd rather keep my natty test still working before I make that leap later in life.

 

 

[SemperFi]

Gas Can,

Thanks for posting this up for discussion.

The only opinion that I have is on GH and IGF-1. The science behind these two makes for a very strong case for adding them. The high level of counterfeits make a very strong case against. If you have deep pockets and want to experiment and/or have reached your potential through other means than it could be a serious consideration. I can only advise if you do not have the patience to allow them to work and the finances to stay invested into them then skip them for a later consideration.

SEMPER FI

 

[blastthru23]

There's always the poor man's gh... ghrp + cjc...

 

[SemperFi]

Or the natural ways to increase GH and IGF serum levels.

No matter what direction that is decided do not have unrealistic expectations concerning the speed in which they will provide results. The farther along that you are in your development the more obvious the results will be manifested.

SEMPER FI

 

[turnupthegas]

I have dabbled before and financially only had the dough to run it for about 2 months, I did notice better sleep and about the 5-6 week mark started to get the sides, numbness in hands and i had kankles to the point my shoes didn't fit and you couldn't see my ankle bone, so I know it was at work. The reason I ask is this could be a sponsored cycle for the sake of reviewing and a cycle log and I can only assume that for a source to go to that extent with GH, I would hope it would be legit stuff, but then again who knows?? Nothings set in stone but if it were to come to life, I just wanted thoughts before embarking that it seems like a wise decision, assuming I have enough to run for 9-12 months. I have long term goals in mind, 2-3 years from now to be in optimal shape, so def not looking for some miraculous transformation by next summer lol, been at this too long to know that its hard work that gets results not the drugs, but when at a physical genetic limit, thats when the become a factor moreso then ever.

thx brother

 

[turnupthegas]

I did run a CJC/GHRP-2/HGH FRAG cycle with decent fat loss, but not much in the light of growth, but then again I did not run this with aas at the time it was simply a pep cycle, so that could have factored in.

 

[SemperFi]

If it is going to be made available to you and you can run it for that length of time I would jump all over it if I were you. Short of plastic surgery nothing is more expensive or more effective in actual body recomp if the quality matches pharma grade.

SEMPER FI

 

[Dolf]

Just keep in mind that the best Chinese generic hgh is about 50% of a good pharm grade gh. You can get decent Chinese gh this time, and then get the same brand from the same source next time and it's junk. Hgh is a high risk high reward proposition. 

 

[strong]

On point Dolf.. I have received a bunk kit from 3 transactions with the same guy. He did send a free kit if I bought 1 which I did and it was good GH... Its great for sleep and added vascularity. For me, I was not impressed. I'd say its not even the cherry on top of a sundae. Maybe sprinkles. I did notice when I went off my sleep wasn't as good and sleep is important. I went off 3 weeks ago after 7 months. I do have to question that if something I'm taking that is making my feet numb is really worth it. After 3 weeks the numbness is all gone but my big toe is still numb... Id have to put it in the category of 'if your getting on stage' use it...

 

[Mister A]

TUG, although I think your issue has a lot to do with going on and coming off and a simple blast and cruise protocol would get you to where you want to be, I respect your decision to avoid that route at this time.

Knowing that you have your diet dialed in, I run the risk of suggesting something you've already tried, but I will anyway just to be sure. Have you attempted to use food to spike your insulin levels throughout the day in an effort to get past the 190 plateau? Everyone seems to have a weight they plateau at whether it's 190 or 290. I know you don't want to engage in a dirty bulk concept or something similar as your goals are mainly recomposition. But what about a 4 week growth induction in the middle of your cycle. Weeks, say, 8-11. Add the DBol in for 4 weeks and effectively turn the insulin switch to 10 all day long by spiking it with foods that carry a high glycemic load throughout the day. And I mean throughout the day as in every hour you're eating 30g of high glycemic carbs between meals. Your overall surplus for the 4 weeks will start at 500 and go up 150 calories each week so on week 4 youre eating 950 calories over maintenance. After the 4th week (week 11 of the cycle) you can go back to 200 calories above maintenance. This is a strategy I've seen used by people who just can't seem to get past a certain weight no matter how much they eat. A genetic plateau can be overcome and I believe using the most anabolic substances available to us (food) is the best way to go about it.

 

 

[blastthru23]

I'm curious what foods you would suggest as high glycemic. I eat about 1 tsp of raw honey post w/o prior to pounding a protein shake fortified with oat bran. Would eating honey prior to a meal be a way to go about spiking the insulin throughout the day? I personally have no problem putting on weight, this is just doe the sake of curiosity. 

 

[Mister A]

It's gonna be individualistic based on the goals and the individual. Like for TUG, I would have him drink a small bottle of gatorade as soon as he woke up and then from there I would simply add 3/4 cup of white rice between each meal (which would have brown rice or a different low glycemic carb). Thats where I would start and then see how he responded. Id try to do it fairly clean, but may need to get dirty.

If I had a guy who was trying to get to 300 pounds and couldn't seem to get past 285, I'd have him eat a Hershey Bar every hour on the hour throughout the day. He would then have 3 or 4 other meals, none of them would be clean. He'd be at least 1000 calories over maintenance. Super simple Test/Deca cycle and his Anadrol dosage would be fine tuned. When you're that big and you're not growing you literally have to kill yourself with food to break through. So many different variables are going to come into play, this is just a rough blueprint to show the differences.

 

[blastthru23]

 It's like blowing up a balloon to increase its circumference,  it takes an exponential amount of air to increase the circumference as balloon gets bigger. Seems the same for increasing the size of our bodies, although we have to take metabolism, insulin sensitivity etc into account. 

 

[Mister A]

Exactly, Blast. The fact that there are so many variables makes it so challenging. These issues are magnified and made more challenging by going on and coming off. It's my personal opinion now that if you're going to do multiple cycles you should commit to a blast and cruise protocol. Aside from the hormonal, psychological and emotional advantage you can also achieve steady and mostly linear growth.

 

[turnupthegas]

Thanks for that brotha, haven't been on in a few days and its been a looooong ass day and is now midnight so i'm going to hit the rack, but wanted to say thx, I did see the post and will reread and ask some questions tmrw when i'm sitting and can dig into it. I just don't want to type out some half ass reply now after you went out of your way with the advice. I'm intrigued and would like to know more.

 

[turnupthegas]

Fingers crossed for the opportunity for sure!

 

[turnupthegas]

I hear ya Dolf, I don't have anything to compare it to other then what I consider generic GH that someone threw a label on the vial. So i'm curious to see the difference and will keep in mind to start slooooww especially if its pharma, becaus i'll prop overdo it if i attack it at a dose i ran the other stuff at.

 

[turnupthegas]

My feet blew up so i backed it down when i did give it that go, but most noticiable was the fact that my left wrist remained numb for about 4 weeks after stopping, funny thing is it was identical to what happened when i ran 1000mcg 2x/week of CJC?!?! Wondering if those generics are nothing more then some peptides tbh? Who knows and there is no way to tell without testing each batch i guess which is unrealstic as well, so i guess if you want to know exactly what we are putting in our bodies, then pharm grade is he way to go. Sucks when you're not made of $$ though lol. 

 

[turnupthegas]

I need to look into this man for sure, I'm such a food nazi that i'm always concerned when I eat dirty but I think I need to get away from the fact that I have to be super duper strict even when trying to really grow, I just put such hard work and dedication into my diet that sugarry sit scares me, well any junk for that, but calories in vs out is what they say, so if i'm training hard i should not gain a ton of fat. Its always my worry that i'll piss away the hard work.

 

[Mister A]

I have the exact same concerns. I've come down from 21% to 13.5% the last 6 months and I'm not going back. If you're someone with a fast metabolism then you NEED that bit of bloat in order to put on muscle. I'm certainly not saying that you need to go to a buffet and eat until you puke. You have to apply the same discipline you do when you're cutting. Everything is planned out and the idea is to do it as clean as possible. If your goal was to build IFBB pro size, I would say you have to get real dirty. But with your goals, I think you can eat mostly clean and still put on good size. What I'm suggesting has more to do with nutrient partitioning and insulin spiking than it does overall diet.

Actually, I hope Sam reads this because he knows more about this than I do and he could probably teach both of us something.