Like seig said, time on equals time off. For PCT here is some good info here:
https://musclegurus.to/forum/anabolic-steroids/post-cycle-therapy/75185-understanding-pct
Now as far as when to start it. Medium esters like test E wait 14 days, and a long ester like sustanon wait 21 days before starting PCT.
How many of us actually follow the rule of thumb? LOL
Once we're off we will make any excuse to get back on. That's the reality. Nobody wants to see gains lost due to broscience. The truth is that once you stop taking steroids you will lose some of what was gained on cycle and the longer your off the more you will lose. Eventually it all has to be paid back. Just like a home equity line of credit.
The recovery of HPTA is an important part of off cycle time. The length of the cycle will determine how long recovery will take for most individuals. A well planned and implemented short cycle, 8-10 weeks, can see recovery happen in as little as two weeks. A poorly planned cycle has more of a negative impact on recovery than cycle length in my opinion. In a nut shell it is a sliding scale and individually based.
The best way to know when you are ready to start another cycle is experience and a full male hormone panel. Our bodies do not understand the concept of time but it does understand balance.
I often wonder how many of us actually follow the advice that we give. No flaming. Just makes me wonder.
For me, I cycle according to life schedule, which is really my daughters yearly schedule. The time between a cycle I did last year and the one I just finished was 10 weeks. I had planned 12 weeks off. I did bloodwork and it was a go. So I did. Now, I'm cruising again on a low dose of test, deca, and primo. Yes, I don't want to lose the gains, thus the stack.
Sorry I was off for the long weekend without access to the site.
Great information and thank you all! And for the generous offer of Nolvadex. For what it's worth I am scared of that drug so I am going to try skipping it and hope I did right. I will wait another ten days to have been off for three weeks then start the generic pills and see if how that works. I will try to remember to come back to note the good and the bad experiences over the next eight weeks in hopes that it may be of service to someone else.
Obviously I hope for only good 
Thanks again and I will hit you all up in Sept. to help plan the next cycle.
Lastly subzero, thanks. I related well to you note.
You are welcome.
Unless any member can offer a single cite concerning off time equals on time they are just providing information that has been provided by someone else and is not supported by actual scientific research. I am not flaming the idea but I will say it is not the best way in many cases for continual gains based on the previous cycle if that cycle was properly planned and implemented.
Most of the information here on MG is nothing new or unique. Most of us just get caught up parroting what we read on other places without really thinking if it actually makes sense. The cool thing is that most of the information that is provided is intended to help which is a very important aspect of the information (good or bad).
Good luck with your PCT and I hope you achieve a full recovery. PCT is a very tough time but a failed recovery makes PCT look like a 4 week All-Inclusive Tahitian Vacation.
Now that youve stated the above clearly and concisely, it has dawned on me that most people seem to get bloods to ascerrain whether the gear they are running is "good." Not a bad idea. However, I have yet to see bloodwork done (posted or otherwise stated) after completion of pct/time off. It is apparent to me that post pct would be a more informative way seeing whether the pct+time off truly does result in some level of hormonal recovery. Nonetheless, the results would only apply to THAT individual. Get enough people doing it and posting results, we could end up with some anecdotal evidence which would or could be interesting.
Individually based- EXACTLY.
So why make the same recommendation for everyone? Or for a completely different cycle length using different hormones? Makes zero sense if the goal is continual gains and maximizing overall results.
Posting the results to have supporting anecdotal evidence won't happen because very few users even follow the time off = time on rule.
I adhere to proper planning and timing to maximize my own personal gains. The rule of thumb is not incorrect per se it just doesn't support maximizing gains in many cases.
...or even getting bloodwork done rule...for that matter
Prior proper planning prevents piss poor performance
Still it would be very interesting to try to develop some scientific results based on the results of a larger group. While nothing is ever true for the individual based on the truth of the group we do still use the larger body of evidence (the group) to come up with our standards.
Those standards best provide solid advice for any individual to begin with and thus a starting point prior to customizing their own formula.
Again I will do my best to provide what I learn and experience and hopefully it will help someone in some way. And thank you subzeronation...I truly hope for a relatively pain free experience. If I can keep a positive mind set I expect to survive pretty well (huge believer in the placebo effect, thus I try to expect good vs bad things). Take care all!
I'm curious why you are afraid of nolvadex
Is this you
XXX
The rule for posting links to other posting: it's forbidden.
Not going to neg you as that rule is kind of buried in the rule section, and you're new
Plain and simple answer sub, because almost anyone who is asking that question is new to steroids. Does the time off equals time on maximize gains? No. But then again anyone who asks that normally has no clue how to properly plan a cycle, let alone why they are taking each compound in their stack. So therefore it comes down to safety. Time off equals time on, is simply stated so that when a cycle is done even its poorly planned, or e2 wasn't controlled correctly, or many of the other million things that could and will happen during a cycle that someone takes enough time to try and fully recover.
So in the end it comes down to trying to help safely guide the inexperienced.
.
If all this is coming down to safety than we shouldn't provide advice concerning steroid use at all.
Steroid use is only for three specific purposes - medically necessary, performance enhancement and muscle growth. If we are using it for anything else than for medical reasons then we need to maximize the results to meet the purpose. Otherwise we are wasting our time and ACTUALLY could be doing more harm than good to ourselves.
I understand what you are saying but why not say something like - One cycle per year. That makes as much sense as time off = time on.
The other "rule of thumb" advice that you see so many advise is "add only one new compound per cycle". That advice makes perfect sense in my mind but I can't wrap my head around the time off advice.
The advice that makes better sense to me is - Get a full male hormone panel BEFORE doing anything. Once the cycle and PCT are complete and you know your baseline from your pre cycle blood work than you are ready for your next cycle anytime after your post cycle blood work is close to matching your preestablished baseline. If you do not intend to get pre cycle blood work to establish a baseline than you just screwed your capability to maximize your results and are hindering the best return and are increasing your risk. In my opinion that is safer than what the masses are parroting.
Just a different way at looking at something.
It's different, but it's what ought to be protocol. When I started aas I got my prop from a friend of a friend. I asked a few questions, and I was told to do 50mg per week, and eat whatever and lots of it. I did. No nothing about bloodwork, nothing about on cycle support, nothing about pct... just eat and train.
I wish I could go back 10 years and apply what I know now. I have no idea what my baseline was, and of course now it will be hella low, test that is.
I really wish people would learn from my mistakes, but getting people to spend $100 or less on bloodwork is like pulling teeth. Many if not most are foolheartedly pushing gear in their asses not REALLY knowing what exactly is in that oil, but refuse to take adequate precautions for their long term health. It's like, "I'm gonna pin 500mg of test for 12 weeks and look like Coleman!" Not. Maybe 15 years and a dump truck full of compounds and maybe a few close calls with death. Needless to say, a few ruined relationships, I ain't even in that boat, and I nearly messed up my relationship more than once!
I believe that it ought to go like this, and how I wish I had done it:
1. Train and eat natty until I top out (5 years or so depending on ones starting point, age etc). Have a good understanding of diet and how I respond to macro sources
2. Research the hell out of aas, and understand the risk to benefit ratio. Understand what compounds do what.
3. GET BLOOD WORK, full hormone panel, CMP, lipids etc. And, from the findings make corrections
4. Diet and train some more in one direction or another (cut, bulk, recomp)
5. Do a show? Maybe? Once at that place in training
6. From that experience, and after a second round of bloods decide whether I want to continue, and whether gear is right for my goals.
That would have been ideal. But, I didn't do it that way for better or worse, so I keep moving forward.
I agree 100% sub, the only way you ever know whether you have fully recovered is to do bloodwork and physically see if you are recovered and ready. I also know that life is full of certain truths, and one of them is most people don't do bloodwork. Its just like buying a used car, how many people actually take it to a mechanic to have everything checked out before they buy it? Almost nobody, because just like taking steroids they have decided its exactly what they want and its going to happen whatever the price. So therefore that is why the time off equals time on rule was thrown into action. That and because like blast said, so many people have done cycles without one single blood panel so they have no idea what their starting numbers even were. Hell I know I am guilty of that myself, I did a few cycles and I honestly have no clue what my starting numbers were.
Now I do believe that if you want to change things then you should give the bloodwork advice exactly like you stated. I think honestly its something we should all look at doing in the future, because in the end bloodwork is the only way you truly know you have recovered and are ready for another cycle. So that's a +1 from me my friend, because in the end we can always do better to help people be safer
sir would you please direct me where this is disclosed in the rule. I have read through the rules and i find no rule regarding posting links to other website. I see links to other sites and articles all over this forum. a bit confused.
Rule 10.6.4 specifically states links to other sites are allowed.